Electronic Back Road Maps

[brooking10]

I'm trying to find some DECENT electronic back road maps of Mid/Southern Vancouver Island. I have the Back Road Map Book (hard copy) for the island, but many of the logging roads are out of date or not present, and I'd rather have my maps on a GPS for obvious reasons. I see that many people use GPS's (Garmin Montana looks good), but I'm hearing that the maps are out-dated or just lack detail (Garmin's TOPO Canada 4 base map is getting poor reviews from BC backroad riders for lack of logging road and trail detail).

So far the best product I've found is cheap but fairly accurate (if antiquated) TOPO Maps App for, believe it or not, iPhone. At least it gives me most of the mains, and some spurs, plus the GPS function is great. But again, it's based on old Canadian GVT topomaps.

What are other people using? Any help, hints and ideas would be great. Surely the logging companies must be using something??!!

Brooking

[SouthPoint]

I have the Back Road Map Book maps on the SD card. The card plugs right in to my Garmin 60CSx and it works great. The Back Road Map Book people just released an update, so they are pretty current.

[tomcycle]

Although there is no gps version, the most up to date and detailed maping is iMapBC just type that into you search engine or you can go to
http://webmaps.gov.bc.ca/imfx/imf.jsp?site=imapbc

The secret here is to learn the Layers and you will find everything you ever wanted, has a good google earth interface. I spend countless hours at night looking at areas and checking into what the government is up to in our riding areas.

Many a good trail has been discovered throught this site

Tom

[davidhowell]

I have the Back Road Map Book maps on the SD card. The card plugs right in to my Garmin 60CSx and it works great. The Back Road Map Book people just released an update, so they are pretty current.

Where did you get the Back Road Map Book maps for you card from? I would one to have that!!

[Shuswap]

Where did you get the Back Road Map Book maps for you card from? I would one to have that!!

There is a list of retailers....this isn't a perfect map system, but it's pretty good. I ALWAYS carry a paper map along too....because there are errors here and there.
It's compatible with Mapsource and GoogleEarth as well. They had the chip for $120 just a few months back....but I see it's back up to $150, which is what I paid. The Garmin we have is kinda useless without the Backroads map, methinks.

http://www.backroadmapbooks.com/shop/gps-maps-1723/british-columbia-1724/

[250ccforme]

I've had the chip for a while. If I were to buy the BackRoads Digital knowing then what I know now I would get the DVD.

For the chip they touted portability, the chip was not locked to the GPS. Handy if you were to own several units. That I lost when I updated, for free, to the newer version of the mapset. My existing unlock code no longer worked. The new unlock, which they supplied me with quickly, locked the chip to the unit. Didn't matter to me but might to some.

You are allowed the mapset on one computer but the mapset can not be loaded onto chips other than the preloaded one you bought. Writing to that chip overwrites the bought mapset on that chip.

When you load chips from your DVD, you can make chips that contain different mapsets (depending on which mapsets you load, chip may be locked to unit) that you can toggle on/off. Mapsets are loaded as one file. Old files are overwritten when you think you're just adding maps. Sure, the chip you can just plug in and go. With the DVD you have to spend a bit of time on the computer before you're setup that first time, but you'll have a chip that gives you a lot more information. Going riding somewhere else, make yourself another chip. MicroSd is so cheap now, just make a new one.

City Navigator, Topo Canada, Ibycus, BCBR plus free ones; every mapset is slighly different.

[SouthPoint]

I ALWAYS carry a paper map along too....because there are errors here and there.

I couldn't agree with you more on that point. Far too many people put 100% reliance on GPS and leave their common sense at home. A paper map and a compass or simply looking at where the sun is will not fail you when the batteries die or the satellite geometry is poor.

[brooking10]

Some great ideas guys, thanks. I like the imaps, and am trying the layers right now, but can't find one with logging roads. Any hints? The backroad mapbook for the island is poor, except for mains and some older branches, but for the sake of convenience, it may be the best bet to get the electronic ones, if they're compatible with a montana....

Cheers Brooking.

[Donb]

Logging companies generate thier own maps with road layouts of thier respective cutting permits. The most up to date one can get as far as thier area of operation is concerned. Whether or not they would hand one out is another issue. Maybe go have a chat with the company that operates in your area. They may have valuable info you can use, even beyond thier area of operation.

[kenf]

I've been impressed with how detailed and accurate Google Maps are for back roads. I use a program called Oruxmaps on an Android smartphone (Nexus S as it happens) and it will pull from a huge list of online map dbases including Google Maps, Earth (satellite photos), Terrain (contour maps), MS maps, etc, etc. And although I have heard it violates Googles terms, Oruxmaps caches everything very efficiently, so you basically just need to browse the area you are interest in while you have a wifi connection, and you'll suddenly have a full database of maps and/or satellite photos for that area.

I agree it's still nice to have a paper map for backup, and know how to use it, but worst case, that's what the SPOT is for (to ask my buddies to come fine me :)

Cheers
KF

[kenf]

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention, Orux is completely 100% free, not even adware supported. Pretty impressive software for the author to be giving it away.

[brooking10]

After reading this blog post, I'll not be buying a SPOT, but rather a GPS encoded PLB which is more powerful, has no subscription fee, and contacts the emerg services directly rather than third party...

Orux sounds like a great app, unfortunately it hasn't been developed for the iphone platform, although there is someone working on it... I wonder if pulling down and storing the Google maps is available on another app?

Brooking

[kenf]

Not sure which blog post you are talking about (did you mean to include a link?) but I know Will Gadd had a fairly negative one, and his criticisms made sense for some folks, not for others. You've probably been through the SPOT vs. PLB argument at great length, but for anybody else reading this, I'll throw out the most obvious discussion point anyhow.

PLB is more expensive, bulkier (last time I checked), and something that hopefully you will carry always and never, ever use, since the only time you use it, you're looking at S&R extraction. SPOT is cheap (although the service fees add up in the long run), light, and something I actually use virtually every time I'm out. I leave it on real-time tracking mode, so my wife can keep tabs on me and doesn't freak out when I'm a bit overdue. Particularly good on solo rides. With the new Connect, you have quite a bit more message flexibility as well (including arbitrary text messaging, if you choose to pay additional fees), so you can use it for non-emerg messages, for when you need help from your buds but not from S&R.

Obviously everybody is different, but I'd encourage anybody to do their homework before choosing either, to make sure it suits your needs.

Bummer about the iphone, the only solutions my iphone-carrying buddies have been happy with have all been for-profit software, unfortunately.

Cheers
KF

[kenf]

Oh, and I'm not sure about the 3rd party vs. emerg services criticism, but if you hit the SOS button, the service provide contacts the nearest 911 and/or S&R number for you. Yes, they are a third party, but that seems almost like complaining you don't have a hotline directly to the fire department, you have to count on your phone company to connect the 911 call :)

[Donb]

"What are other people using? Any help, hints and ideas would be great. Surely the logging companies must be using something??!!"

For some reason my post/reply from yesterday got deleted.
Logging companies generate and produce thier own maps relevant to thier cutting permits and operating areas. They would be the most current in the specific area. May be a lead to follow with your local logging companies/ employees, especially areas they have finished and moved on from. I work in this industry and there are always news areas to explore being opened up and at times re-opened out of inactivity. Anyay, just a thought.

[brooking10]

Good points, Ken, but here's the link (http://cameronsoftware.com/blog/?p=910) (I think it's dirtclunker's blog). The PLB has a much more powerful signal and won't be stopped by the sort of heavy canopy we have here. Anyway, those new features of that you mentioned sound interesting.

[kenf]

He's "spot" on with regards to canopy -- the spot will NOT get a signal out if you are under heavy tree cover. I've tested it pretty extensively up at whistler, and it does awesome anywhere there's a decent view of the sky (even FSR's) but almost no chance of getting out a signal if you wrap yourself around a tree at speed on tight single track. Definitely worth understanding the limitations of both units. But I'd disagree with the "it sucks" conclusion. Not the right tool for everybody, great tool for me personally.

Here's my wife's view of me taking the TE out for a quick test rip up at Vedder yesterday, thanks to the SPOT connect.
6218

Cheers!
KF

[Donb]

I personally have a SPOT unit and like the thing. Touching on another issue is the fact that one shouldn't ride alone in areas that get beyond the "safe" zone, and yes we all seem to do it. As long as someone else is there the SPOT can be put in a good transmission area to do its thing. Even a simple GPS unit is extremely valuable if a SPOT isn't carried. I was the subject of a helicopter extraction 3 years ago after breaking my hip in a fall on my klx400 while riding with my son in the mountains on some deactivated logging roads. My son had to ride out to get help and ground rescue wasn't feasible. The very first thing the helicopter pilot asked my son was if he had the GPS coordinates of my location(unfortunately not). This is where a simple gps unit would have helped alot. The pilot had a general knowledge of the area, but he ended up starting in the next draw from me and my son fortunately rode in that direction and hooked up with the chopper and lead it back toward me. When he finally hovered over me it was one of the best things I ever saw.

It was touch ang go time wise as light was fading and the pilot said if it had taken much longer I would have had to stay the night where I was or have some sort of ground attempt made, which would not have been a good scene. If I had been out there alone things could have been drastically different. I now have a SPOT and a Garmin with backroad mapbooks on it.

Be careful out there.




He's "spot" on with regards to canopy -- the spot will NOT get a signal out if you are under heavy tree cover. I've tested it pretty extensively up at whistler, and it does awesome anywhere there's a decent view of the sky (even FSR's) but almost no chance of getting out a signal if you wrap yourself around a tree at speed on tight single track. Definitely worth understanding the limitations of both units. But I'd disagree with the "it sucks" conclusion. Not the right tool for everybody, great tool for me personally.

Here's my wife's view of me taking the TE out for a quick test rip up at Vedder yesterday, thanks to the SPOT connect.
6218

Cheers!
KF

[tomcycle]

Some great ideas guys, thanks. I like the imaps, and am trying the layers right now, but can't find one with logging roads. Any hints? The backroad mapbook for the island is poor, except for mains and some older branches, but for the sake of convenience, it may be the best bet to get the electronic ones, if they're compatible with a montana....

Cheers Brooking.

For the iMap site go under Layers and select Licence and Permits there you will find the Logging Road and Tenure information

I am assuming that the logging companies submit there final road and cut block information to the Government and it gets added to the iMap site, every time I discuss anything to do with our riding areas with either party we do the maping thru this site.

Tom

[quadrabike]

The least expensive way, but still dated, is the canadian topo series from Ibycus.com. He is a student that offers the maps freely. Either a little complicated bit torrent download or a DVD (with a small charge) . Unfortunately, he doesn't always answer his email queries. I can try to make a copy of mine if you like, as someone did the same for me. Very few backroads are up to date and the backroads maps have a lot more detail. They too are dated. We tried to follow thelogging road route to gold River on the norht side of Upper Campbell Lake and found the road eventually deactivated. Later, we found out it was done in 2003 or 5. Back roads maps occasionally come on sale for different locations, on their site. The BC card sells at $120 instead of $150 from time to time. I'm waiting for October to start to see if there will be some on sale. For Campbell river and Courtenay, at least, the newly updated Search and Rescue Map is the most accurate of the 3 but is not offered digitally to my knowledge. Hope this helps.
Brent

[XT350]

I personally like the good old paper maps. I was searching for the bc forest service maps which I was told are no longer being printed. I finally found them!!
International travel maps and books 12300 Bridgeport road Richmond b.c. It's true they are no longer being printed. So limited amount of maps left. Apparently these maps were just sitting in a government warehouse collecting dust waiting to be tossed till International travel maps and books was able to buy them up. These are great off road maps.

Rob

[Jake the Dog]

I've done the research. There's not much out there. If you can access logging company GIS data (good luck there) and have access to GIS software you can build your own maps and georeference them into the Garmin (Montana). I haven't found a GPS unit yet where you can upload GIS data and view it directly. If there's a unit that has this functionality I'd sure like to know. Your best value is the Motion X app for an I Phone for $3 a pop. At least you can get Google Earth on the platform if you're within signal range. The base mapping in a standard GPS unit is crap for sure.

Jake the Dog

[SouthPoint]

I haven't found a GPS unit yet where you can upload GIS data and view it directly. If there's a unit that has this functionality I'd sure like to know.

Jake the Dog

In order to do that, you would probably need to spend some $$ and get something like this:

http://www.trimble.com/mappingGIS/geoxt6000.aspx?dtID=applications

Probably not worth it for recreational use.

[DirtClunker]

I use a garmin Montana with Backroads GPS SD Card. I tried Backroads GPS V2 - but they took out DTM so you get no 3D and shaded relief - pisses me off. So I went back to V1.

Basically, as said before, there is no good GPS data for logging roads other than trading them between backroads riders. I have tried both Garmin and Ibycus - they are based off the 1:250,000 NTS maps which are quite old.

I use a combination of: the Backroads GPS maps; info from other riders; air photos from CRDAtlas; air photos from Google Earth - then I just ride and explore.

BTW - getting GIS format to GPS is not that big of a deal. Most of it is in shape file format, and there are a few tools that will convert it into Garmin IMG format which can be loaded into any Garmin GPS. Or you can take a shape file into a georeferences KMZ file which can be overlayed with GPS units like the Garmin Montana. I also have a Galazy Tab with Android - its pretty good - but again - no logging roads.